Welcome to another Motor Sport audio podcast. There was no avoiding the team orders scandal from Hockenheim, but we also have a look at the Formula 1 driving standards, the relationship between Vettel and Webber and whether it’s too late for Schumacher to start producing the results.
Anyway… enjoy and do let us know what you think. We’ll be back on air later this month or early next month with another guest so ‘stay tuned’.
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my question was broadcast but taken out of context = “.i reckon the “Lauda” thing is overused in the past, to add to what “antipodean” askes, drivers like Villeneuve, Depailler and Bellof, Alesi etc…. guys with fantastic car control that didnt get the luck they deserved, to get some old stories from Gerhard Berger or Martin Brundle would be good also…….”
what i meant was that the Lauda impersonation is perhaps a litle overused, and by drivers with “fantastic car control” i meant stories of drivers like Villeneuve (Gilles) Depailler, Bellof alesi etc with stories of Berger & Brundle etc….. stories of all the above drivers…. :) keep up the good work however
Well the Team Orders Scandal is very important to Grand Prix racing and, especially, to those who earns a living off it.
If the general public feel like they’re being treated with disdain and being duped or “cheated” of a “race” or “show”, well…they’ll use their entertainment dollars elsewhere…
If F1and the FIA is serious about “improving the show”, then reversing the team orders ban rule would put a BIG HURT on that desire.
Lastly, if the ban is taken away, then we’re going down a nasty route…
…for what’s to prevent the following:
- A Toro Rosso driver backing right up after an early pitstop and “tangling” with Alonso while being lapped so that Vettel or Webber could win;
OR
- Massa not giving a millimetre to either Hamilton or Button and actually “collecting” one of them in an “unfortunate contretemps” or an “unfortunate racing accident”…so that Alonso could win!
It’s not like it’s never happened…
One need not go beyond Singapore 2008 to see how Fernado gained a “win” when Renault purposely crashed the Number 2 car and totally disadvantaged 9 other teams and 18 other drivers.
Re: “Shuey” or “Schumi” or whatever you want to call him (“King”, I believe, on the pre-season cover … Ha Ha!):
Well…It didn’t really take rocket scientry for me to say that the German would “get dismantled by the current Aces on the grid” back in Winter.
Schumacher was a VERY GOOD (not “GREAT”) driver in a VERY WEAK driver era (mid 1994 – 2002) at a time when Ferrari enjoyed an unusually significant edge on a number of fronts, incuding a veto on Technical developments with the FIA (as confirmed by Max Mosely).
Further, Schumacher himself had a veto on any other potentially fast driver joining Ferrari.
Well…Shuey/Shumi now finds himself in a VERY STRONG diver era without any of those unusual advantages (on unlimited testing, fast teammate, no clear Number 1 status, no tailor-made Bridgestones for Ferrari/himself, no Rory Byrne to design a car specifically to cater to his unusual driving style)…
…and what you see is what you get…
…i.e. a VERY GOOD driver having to compete on equal footing with other VERY GOOD drivers – as well as (possibly) one GREAT driver (Hamilton)….
It isn’t Rocket Science.
Cheers.
PS
Another entertaining Podcast, gentlemen!
I must admit, before I listened I was hoping to hear a little bit of a different tone towards the whole team orders debacle than that of Nigel’s original report. It disappointed me, too, to hear that the MS team is largely unfazed by the effects of allowing team rules in today’s F1.
I guess all of us will have diverging opinions. But I have to agree with Mr. Tanveer above and the argument that allowing that practice has a great possibility of leading the sport into dirty tactics by teams fielding 1 main driver and another support driver, or even a support team.
It also surprises me to hear that while you guys are seemingly OK with team orders, you agree that TESTING should continue to be banned. I must admit, the ban on testing has never made much sense to me…
The last thing I must admit also surprises me, though to a lesser degree, is how Fernando Alonso seems to be operating in this hallowed ground, and beckons no criticism from the podcast team. I was waiting to hear what your opinions were on the fact that a) Ferrari actually favored him with the pit strategy in Hockenheim even though Massa was leading and b) Alonso constantly whined over the radio to the team while being incapable of overtaking Massa on his own. The point kep coming up that Fernando was faster than Felipe, yet I must ask, if he was that dominant, how come he didn’t pass him on his own? It’s the #1 argument for why last weekend was not a real race. Surely Ferrari could have radioed in and reminded both drivers that their responsibility was to finish the race in the best possible position. That would have been enough reminder to Felipe that yes, if Fernando is breathing his exhaust fumes, then it’s probably best to move over. But not before.
I have to conclude saying that I wasn’t disappointed with the podcast per se, and I highlly value the input we get from you guys monthly. Sometimes I don’t agree with what’s been said, but that’s life…
I don’t see this as Ferrari favoring Alonso over Massa, but rather favoring the driver leading in the WDC standings. That might have been Massa, in which case the radio might have remained silent. But we’ll never know.
Contrast with the Schumacher era, in which #1/#2 status and rules of engagement were codified in contracts… Oh the joy seeing him spectating during Q3 and putting competitors on the grass for 11th place..
OK, this looks broadly like a vote in favour of the “home team” podcast and nobody minds dosagreement, rather we encourage it, especially from such incredibly well-informed and articulate readers and listeners. Keeps us on our toes.
We do not, by the way, condone team orders, we simply accept that it has always been this way and therefore the rule is absurd. It cannot be outlawed as there are too many ways of achieving results that are far, far more subtle than the methods employed by Ferrari last weekend.
The bottom line is that we the fans, you the fans, and everybody else is being treated like simpletons. Doing it is one thing, denying it with such transparently stupid explanations is another.
Hopefully we will have a guest next time. We are working on it.
RW
But, Mr Widdows, Sir, where do you “draw the line” on Team Orders?
Is crashing the Number 2 Renault car so Fernando Alonso can “win” in Singapore in 2008 not a Team Order?
And what about the “when”?
I have no problems with it when it’s relatively late in the season and one of the drivers has absolutely no chance … and the team informs the world that their drivers are under orders so one of them can secure the championship…
…but NOT in mid July!!!
If Massa was allowed to take his well-deserved victory…and if – for whatever reason – Alonso DNF’d this weekend at Hungary while Massa himself won again, then they’d be EQUAL on points…with 175 points STILL AVAILALABE!!!
Yes Team Orders should come into play at some stage of the year…but to blatently do it at Hockenheim in Mid July with 200 points for Massa to play for is heinous!
I might be wrong, but one can only surmise that many on the Podcast team just happen to overly love Alonso … and so for that reason – and to cover off pre-season predictions/pontifications – it was “ok” to allow Fernando to win!
Quite why a majority of the Podcast team have such a love for that perverted, moaning, crying coward of a Spaniard is beyond some of our understanding. Has everyone forgotten the e-mail blackmail gambit at Hungary 2007…the cheating at Singapore 2008…the vetoing of Kubica joining Ferrari for 2011/12?
Frankly, if Fernando can’t win on his own during a time when Hamilton, Vettel, Button and Webber are fighting it out tooth-and-nail against each other and the rest of the grid, lap in lap out…then the Spaniard deserves to lose…especially given all his mistakes in Australia, China, Monaco, Turkey Q2, Silverstone – not to mention his inability to sort out Buemi and some back-markers here in Canada.
It would indeed be ‘nice’ if the Podcast team supported the cleaner, younger drivers on the grid who are just as fast – perhaps even faster – than Alonso…but who don’t whine and moan and cry continuously if their teammate isn’t subjugated and who have a lot less dirty baggage on their backs.
Further:
McLaren and Red Bull, right NOW, likely have NO CHOICE but to choose a Number 1 to fully back from here on…
They now HAVE to impose Team Orders to ‘cover’ Ferrari!
No choice!
Ferrari – in an effort to get at least something out of this relatively poor season – have laid down a gauntlet …and since Massa is not going to be allowed to beat Fernando…and since Massa may even be under orders to “interfere” or “disrupt” or “pressurize” or possibly even “force off” Hamilton, Vettel, Button, Webber…it seems like Whitmarsh/Dennis and Horner/Newey/Mateschitz may have to “act accordingly”.
Who is to say that, in such an obviously “cynical” and often “dirty” world, that RBR may not get their two Toro Rosso drivers “into the mix” to “interfere” (“subtly”, of course) with Alonso after one of their “early” pitstops upon being lapped?
“Oh…but it was only an ‘unfortuanate racing incident’!”
Ha ha!
We’ve seen this movie before with PK jr and Alonso’s last team:
Young driver (in this case Buemi or Algersauri) is offered “a seat for next year” if they “aid” the Senior seat “win” a Grand Prix by whatever means possible.
Or am I being as “cynical” as some of the old “seasoned observers” on the Team Orders “huffing and puffing” (as written by Mr Roebuck in his report)?
Massa was pretty serious about not doing it again when he spoke in the press conference today…
The most efficient way to secure a championship is to have the number one always in front of his tail-gunner team mate(!) and the tail-gunner quick enough to take maximum points off everyone else without disrupting the number one. Juat as in the Michael and Rubens days.
We all know that, but the problem is:
WE DON’T LIKE IT!!!!!
Something has to be done otherwise we only have half of the top drivers racing and the other half looking after their team mates.
How will we know the true ability of a top driver without the reference point of his team mate in the same equipment and with the same opportunities?
Of course, the teams can be more subtle, but at least some changes are necessary to make it more difficult to orchestrate the order of drivers on track.
For example, ban the radio and all the adjustments in the cabins and from the pits.
This year is a great example of at least 8 top drivers battling their team mates as well as the others, but Ferrari have now ruined that and without sufficient penalty (i.e. loss of points), the other teams are going to have to make some decisions to favour one of their drivers lest Alonso and Felipe play the Michael and Rubens game.
First, let me point out that I am both an Alonso fan and a Ferrari fan but first and foremost a Formula One fan and this is why I think the ban on team orders needs to be upheld. It is the sport that suffers when everyone walks away from a race like this with a bad taste. Those of us who read this magazine are probably going to stay F1 fans but how do you explain what happened to the potential fan or casual viewer of which there are plenty I’m sure. If we, the hard core fans are angry over this what do you think it does to the sport as a whole.
F1 is a sport that is all about change. It is constantly evolving both from a technical and a sporting perspective there is no reason to assume that team orders cannot be changed to reflect the interests of the sport. The qualifying has changed for the better I think many would agree. We have done away with testing(who would have thought that would be possible) and I think it has not only saved money potentially but also tightened up the front of the grid. Change is possible.
In the current situation team orders are against the existing rules and therefore I think the Ferrari team should be excluded from the German GP results. This is the only action that will send the right message.
I am glad that the subject of blocking was brought up during the podcast. If blocking is allowed you don’t have racing because anyone can simply keep someone behind them by doing it. I do think there is a solution but it is not going to come from the drivers we need well written rules that allow for interpretation. With a former driver acting as a steward we have already taken a step forward. We need to set a higher standard and enforce it.
The drivers and teams are doing what they are suppose to trying to win races and the championship that is their focus. Of course they will come up with ways to push the boundaries of the rules that is their job and a part of what makes the sport dynamic and exciting but at the same time the rule makers must find a way to discourage behavior that is not in the interests of the sport.
Thanks for the podcasts they are always enjoyable Particularly P Head, loved it!
..always an enjoyable hour of informed musings…pleased you all survived the helicopter raids, and please keep The Rat on the payroll….Thanks again..
Espectacular podcast !!!!
Top class F1 people … at their best …
Big fan of you ….
Totally agree about comments about Vettel, Senna, Hamilton, and theirs agresive antics ….
I should declare myself big fan of Prost and Alonso
Thank you for sharing your f1 knowledge,
AF
The special guest Nikki Lauda made it for me this month.
I have a question for those who ‘love’ Alonso:
Why?
To me he’s not as fast or consistent as either Hamilton, Kubica or Vettel.
He seems to be the biggest moaner and whiner around and has no problem blackmailing his team (McLaren precisely three years ago) or having his Number 2 crash the car (Renault) or move over for him at only mid year (Massa).
In addition, the Spaniard is a coward (vetoeing Kubica joining Ferrari; running away from a rookie at Mclaren with his tails between his legs; not wanting to partner Raikkonen.)
So, if Fernando isn’t as fast or as consistent as Hamilton or Kubica or Vettel…and he’s as poisonous a character as ever seen in Grand Prix racing…and he’s completely fearful of another top-line driver having the same equipment in the same team…then what’s the fascination?
And the answer has to beyond something like, “Well, he won two WDC in the mid 00s”.
Right now there would be at least 3 drivers i’d chose over Fernando if I was a team manager, least of which would be that i’d avoid poisoning my entire franchise with a ghastly, vile character who had too much baggage and who simply was not as fast or consistent as some others.
It just wouldn’t be worth the trouble or cost.
A real answer would be nice (and i’m probably not alone on these blogs for wondering so).
Best,
R Tanveer
Well, well. 1st, the podcast was not as long as we’ve gotten used to. An hour is more appropriate.
2nd, team orders: The “rule” worded as it is, is somewhat silly, but the spirit is not. I think any team who wants to control their drivers can come up with a way of doing so. I would stick to the “bringing the sport into disrepute” clause. Which obviously applied to Austria 2002 or Singapore 2008. Lower the boom when that happens. That deserves serious consequences.
3rd, regarding testing – my suggestion, made many times, is to allow unrestricted testing on each Friday before a GP. Let the teams do exactly what they want, as if it were a private testing day – but in front of their competitors and the public, for 6-8 hours. Let them run experimental parts, new drivers, whatever, but in full view. Everybody benefits, the teams, the circuits, and the paying public.
I think you have determined a very practical solution to the team orders problem. Long term F1 fans will understand (but not necessarily like) a subtle piece of team orders for strategic team reasons.
The problem is for the casual fan who hopefully should be encouraged to return. The USA experience is relevant in that many people turned-up for their first look at F1 but will never return after that disaster at Indy.
Big crowds attend here in Oz but many are not F1 tragics and did not understand the Coulthard & Mika switcheroo years ago. Many will not come back because they expected everyone on the track was trying to win. The matter has to be sorted out otherwise the long-term outlook for F1 will not interest any but the enthusiast. And many of them (us) will reconsider our support.
Perception will become reality.
If the punters think the races are rigged then F1 is on the slippery slope to oblivion.
Just to clarify my previous comment, I commend John Saviano for his solution to the team orders problem.
I also like the Friday testing idea.
I, too, second John Read in commending John Saviano’s solution to the “test ban”. I do like most of his ideas on the re-jigging Fridays, especially in regards to benefiting the paying public and the use of the “third” or young driver.
O dear…
…”Schuey”/”Shumi” is really getting dismantled, isn’t he?
It’s getting beyond comedy, now!
Rosberg was 8-tenths faster in Hungarian Q2 and qualified the car in 6th…with the other Mercedes in 14th!
What a mockery they are making out of themselves over there at Mercedes/Brawn by keeping SCH on!
I suppose it’s more marketing than a desire to have the fastest available drivers around…but the “marketing” is becoming a poor joke!
A thunderstorm is in the offing at Hungaroring…so perhaps Schumacher will have to count on his lottery ticket!
Ha ha!
Mrs Schumacher may be counting on his life insurance (and Mrs Barrichello for her husband).
Well, there wasn’t a sudden thundershower at the Hungaroring on Sunday so “Schuumi”/”Shooey” couldn’t cash in his lottery ticket.
Ha ha!
Imagine the German’s classification had Hamilton and Kubica not been short-changed by their teams!
He would have finished, what, 13th?
So much for the aero-dynamically superior “Odd Number” 3 which he annexed from Nico!
It’s too funny!
As I said, Mercedes-Benz is making a mockery of themselves!
I liked the background noises, they reminded me of disc 2 of Physical Graffiti.
So the response Nigel Roebuck got from Ross Brawn during his Ferrari days when asked about Schumacher’s ability to deal with any car whatever the problem now applies to Hamilton?
Thanks for the great podcasts, keep them coming please. Particularly like the editions with guests (nothing personal !) , Christian Horner and Patrick Head were great, How about Ross Brawn, Jackie Stewart and Gerhard Berger ?
August is over . . . . . where is the August podcast?
Is there going to be an August Podcast?
Fantastic podcasts…Please when is the next one coming – I’m getting worried!
Great stuff guys, have been checking the site almost every day since the begining of August fro the next podcast, Any idea when it is going to be?
Keep up the great work!
Dear All,
I’m very sorry for the delay in the next podcast. We had one lined up in mid-August, but sadly the guest couldn’t make it at the last minute.
To make up for this though we are doing a ‘Goodwood Revival’ special in the Drivers Mess this Friday. Whether this will work or not remains to be seen, but we have at least a few great names keen to come and have a chat.
Look out for it on Monday September 20!
Best
EF